Nathalie:
So welcome. Today, me and Disha are going to talk about the art of listening, which is always a very difficult topic for everyone, because most of the times we don't want to listen, we just want to talk. We just want to send information and information. But you do have people that are always the listeners.
And in a way, it's not that they make themselves small. Some people do that. They hold on to this personality of the one that always listens, but in that way that makes them feel important, huh? But you also have the ones that truly listen. And when you meet someone that truly listens, in a way you get a little bit unease because for the first time someone truly hears you.
And because we're, we're used just by blabbing and blabbing and blabbing sentence after sentence In a way, we just know that most people are already somewhere else, because when someone talks, most of the times our mind is all over the place. We get reminded of things that happened to ourselves. So what is the art of listening?
The art of listening is actually, Telling the other person, I see you. And it doesn't matter what you believe of who you are or what you are saying at this moment, I just let you be the way you are. I think this is the art of listening.
Disha:
That's a beautiful subject, by the way. I love talking about it. Can you talk about , the art of listening, from our childhood, like. How does it get developed, when we are children?
Nathalie:
Well, most of the time as children we find out in an, in a not very good way. Our parents tell us you should listen better, you know, things like that. That's just how it develops. But when you have parents that see you, they also ask you questions. So the art of listening is not only, by saying nothing and let the other one just talk, but also, you know, when you hear something, you ask for an explanation.
So with children it develops, the art of listening is when they are allowed to be themselves and are being questioned about it. In that way, they learn the other side of being listened to, which is very important because when we don't have this in our lives that people listen to us. Most of the times you cannot listen to other people also.
Disha:
Why is that?
Nathalie:
Um, there is no space for you. So you want to show yourself all the time. So in a way you're, you're telling the other, listen to me, listen to me, why? Why don't you see me? So the art of listening is something that develops if, someone had space to show itself and to be seen because when you had that in your life, um, yeah, people were attentive. They showed you, you are important in who you are. You understand what I'm saying?
Disha:
100%. So here's my question then. It sounds, it feels that, it is something that we develop when we feel we are heard.
Nathalie: Yeah.
Disha: What if we do not, we've not had that kind of environment growing up, and so now we don't have those skills. So what can we do? to develop that if we become aware of it.
Nathalie:
Yeah. The first thing is to become aware of it, but you will see it at the other person because in a way they become, they get this hazy vision, they just tune out. You're Just telling your story and just going on and on and on and it's like the person next to you is becoming smaller and smaller and smaller.
So the first step is to notice it. I have a friend and, when you say one sentence before you know it, she has said 10. And you'd try another one, and she said, 20. And you're like, okay, wait a second. And sometimes she comes to me, and then I tell her, I said, Okay, and then I, I want to explain something, and she already filled it in.
And I said, wait. I said, you could be surprised instead of just, knowing what is about to come. And she talks about that she needs to sit on her hands sometimes not to intervene, I said, but you learn a lot from listening to others. They show you something, the way they see things in life, how they observe life.
So how would you develop it? It has to do with being interested in the person that is sitting in front of you. One of my favorite questions was, when I was younger, I would go certain places and, I would have, I had a lot of different kind of jobs and I would go somewhere and I would ask, who are you?
Because that's a more interesting question. And also when I did the solicitations like this interviews I said, yeah, I believe that you are capable of doing this thing, but tell me something about you because this is, I want to know, because then I would know if it would be the right person or not for what I was looking for.
And in a way you show up so that you open up for the amazing thing someone else has to share with you.
Disha:
So would it be that you, , you're approaching from curiosity and openness to receiving what has to come?
Nathalie:
Yeah. Yeah. And especially when it isn't a subject that you really like or you know a lot about and before you know it, you know, in your mind, you're just waiting.
You're just waiting. You're not listening anymore at all, you're just waiting. When is the key, when can I jump in and tell my story? + But the thing is. It's not about your story at that moment.
Disha:
It sounds like, it's very beautiful because two things, they jump out at me. One is that to be able to hold back and not speak or disturb the other person, shows a lot of restraint, but it also shows, holding onto your ego to, , Not show off.
Nathalie:
Yeah, because that's what most of the times is what happens. You want to tell the other, Oh yeah, but I had this and oh, I understand that you had that soy because once I had this and this is how, our feathers are starting to ruffle and our, you know, wings are coming out.
Look how amazing I am.
We all do this, we all do this and, but the art of listening is in a way being humble. Not that you have to be small, but humble is a very beautiful word because you are here and because you are here, the other can be here also. You truly hear each other. Because the interesting thing is when you let the other speak and you see the other, then after a while, they will ask you a question.
Not everyone, but most people will. And they told their story, and I told their story, because I have many people coming here, and then I sit there, and they tell their story, and I also have another, role in this, but sometimes I just let them talk for a while, and then always after , five or ten minutes or fifty minutes, they say, Oh, but how are you doing today?
You know, this question always comes, , they had their time, they shared what they needed to share and it's out of their system because most of the times the things we, we need to say is because, , it's like this, these bubbles are inside of us and they just want out, they just want out and you didn't find another way to release them.
So you, if you tell them to someone else, then they drop. And it's over.
Disha:
Can you talk about, the role of listening in conversation, conversations that we have?
Nathalie:
Well, I think that's, it is the same, it is the same when we have a conversation with someone else, it always has to do with what is, what kind of conversation you have.
Huh? If it's like this, a therapist and the client, it is a different one of course. Huh? But if you're with friends, it's also. Yeah, because sometimes you have a friend that is always talking about her stories or his stories, and there's never room for you. It could be fine, but on the other hand, it needs to be more balanced.
So then you have to, That's a nice word. Take the stand, they say.
Disha:
So, yes, with conversation and with discussion as well. That, I remember a friend saying that they don't like discussion.
Nathalie:
No, because most people, when they have discussions, they, they want to other to believe what they believe, and, , I don't like that at all.
Yeah, truly. So I don't do discussions, not that kind of discussions. I'm interested in how you view the world. I truly am. But if you're trying to convince me that this is the way it is, then it's like you're, , yeah, you're hitting a door.
Disha:
Why do you think that is happening? Why, do you think people are so desperate to get out? Convince others rather than actually have a discussion
Nathalie:
well because then did then the feathers come out , I I know it so I always say when someone comes to me, you know This is how I see it and perhaps you see it the same way, but perhaps you see it differently than I do but that's for you to decide, not for me.
So what I sometimes see in discussions is that, yes, but, , they had this investigation or this, scientific report, and this is what they found and stuff like that. So then I instantly turn the other way and think, I'm not going to do this today. Because I'm interested in the way you view, the way you see it.
But I don't want to be convinced, and, um, yeah, and I'm not easily persuaded in a way, I guess. You can tell me a lot of things, but still something in me says yes or no. And if you have someone that tries to convince you of this is the way it is, it just ends. Yeah. And there is no listening anymore.
So, Listening has nothing to do with having an opinion. Listening has to do with let the other be., I have a friend that has, I don't speak to him that much anymore, but he has always a very different view on the world. So then I would tell him some certain things and he would say, you know, and then it would come and he would never tell to me, you see it wrong, or this is not right, but he would just share another view.
And that would do something, then I would think about it. But if you tell me, but we know this is like that, then it's different. Because there is no conversation. There's just one way. But if someone just gives another view about something, Then you listen because this is interesting and I always thought to myself, Oh, this is interesting.
I never thought about it that way. I said, you are the only one that always shows me such a different side of things that I could not have thought of. I think, and this is what happens when we truly listen to someone because then this unique part of someone comes out. Not something that they read in a book or someone else told them, but something that is unique.
I believe in the art of listening, when you see the other, then this unique part is opening up.
Disha:
Can you give some, , pointers on how we can ask questions in a way that encourages, this aspect of listening?
Nathalie:
So, if someone has a certain subject, you ask them, Oh, wow, that sounds really interesting. So you are saying, let's see if I can find something. I don't know why they show me a dog that is turning around in circles and said, how did that happen?
Tell me, when was the first time this happened, with your dog? There must have been something that, that was this spectacular that your dog decided I'm going to be dizzy,? So with the question, there's always, you take something of the story of someone else And you ask an explanation like what you do with me, you know, I said, okay, this I understand and that I do understand.
And how does this work? But if you would say, yeah, yeah, I know this and this and this, but I believe and there it goes. I believe that it is like that. Then you kill a conversation. But if you would do it like this, don't say I believe it. You say, oh yeah. Do you think this is also a part of it?
Then it is open. But the thing that you thought could be a part of it is introduced in the conversation. So you learn to have a conversation on a really different, in a really different way.
Disha:
So here's my next question. Do you think? Right now we are talking about verbal communication. So what we can listen. Is there a non verbal listening as well that happens?
Nathalie:
Oh, yeah. And this is even more prominent than the words we use because words just came later in our development in a way because before that we would just Yeah, just, yeah, we did. We would just read each other's energy, and then we would know where the other would be at, and we still do, but we're not conscious about it anymore.
Some are, but most are not. But most of the time, women, most women, had encounters in their life that before it happened, they felt something was off. And they didn't know why or what. And then I had the same and it didn't listen to it. And then you continue and then you see it.
Something is happening that is not, it's not making you feel very well. And luckily it always ended up another way. But you know, , this is the most accessible we know. Before, we could read, uh, the instant, but we still do. When someone comes inside a room, we, we instantly like or dislike a person.
And, um, we are very good at judging, actually. But, uh, It is not that you judge the person on what he says, but the energy that comes inside. It is an energy that will make you expand, or it will make you contract, or it will give you a feeling of unease. So yeah, communication is on several levels. And sometimes, people come here and they sit in the chair and they said, how are you doing?
I'm really doing fine. I said, really? So why are you here? Is this true? I sometimes say and say, yeah, well, so the words can be very different than the feeling , you get with someone. And depending on who it is, you can say something about it. Huh. And it, and it works even further than that.
Another way is like, we think of someone and then the phone rings and this person is calling you. So communication is on, on several levels. And then we have the communication at night in our dreams,
Disha:
elaborate on that more please.
Nathalie:
Some people can remember them dreams very well and others don't remember them at all. But, , we all had dreams that people that we know from our daily lives are just coming in our dreams. And sometimes they have messages in our dreams. And sometimes you just know something of them that you could not know before. And then you speak to this person and they tell you something and you think, I already knew, they already told me.
And with a friend of mine, um, um, well, we were lovers. And when, he met someone else and, um, And I didn't speak to him for a while, but then I had this dream and in this dream afterwards I thought this only would make sense if he would have got married. There was this dream. So I sent him a message and he said we did.
And I think a couple of months ago I, During the night, I was having a conversation with him. So I was really talking to him. And I said, I'm really happy that you found her and, uh, you really belong to each other. And it was a really nice conversation. So the next morning I woke up and I sent him a message.
I told him that I was having this conversation at night and already saw another picture of he looking at his phone and I thought, Oh, he became a father. He got a daughter. And then I told him about this dream and he said, yes, yes. And I became a father. I have a daughter and I said, I'm so happy for you.
And so we get messages, but sometimes it's not just only , with people we know, but it's, it's bigger than that. We get messages that things are happening in the world. Or we travel into other planets and communicate with the beings that are over there. So yeah, communication is not just the verbal words we use.
And especially, you also have communication in sound and in songs. So, One word in a song can touch all the layers in your being, and not only the verbal one, but it does something to us, it changes everything from one moment to the next, when you feel awful, and you turn on a song you really like, after a few seconds, you're like, huh, but you can also have it the other way around when you listen to a song that, um, that would upset you is very, or is very intense, then you get disrupted.
So these are all ways of communicating. And then we have the way, the waves that are coming in, waves of energy of the sun, because without the sun, nothing would exist. And so the waves of the sun, , you read it in the papers or whatever you read is when we had solar flames, it has an effect , on everything in on the planet, including us .
So we forget on how many levels, communication comes to us. So the art of listening is not only listening to the person sitting in front of you or next to you, but start to listen to all those different layers. And in the yoga we talk about the prana, and when you hear the prana, it's like the ringing in the ears or the peeping sound and it's nice to try it because when you just sit and in a way your attention goes outwards, you try to listen with your ears, but as far as possible in a way, and with that, like you, you hear this background sound in between everything.
And in the beginning you do it when the room is quiet, because otherwise you cannot hear it. But afterwards, it's always there. And some people have ringing in the ears, it's a whole different thing. But this is, some people hear waves, for example, waves of the oceans. Others hear a bell.
It changes, but this is a constant. And when you learn to listen to that, , everything calms down. So maybe, uh, you should try not only to listen to your best friends or your partner or your children, but also to everything that is in and outside of you. That is affecting you like that.
Next time, me and Anouk will talk about growing older. What does it even mean to grow older? Is it a concept of the mind? Is it something we truly believe and in a way we make it happen? For I believe that our body is always trying to heal itself and sometimes you meet a person and we've seen their aliveness, their vibrant energy, and we wonder And then we hear about their age and we are so surprised, how is this even possible?