Nathalie:
Today, Disha and I are going to talk about the ego and a lot of things have been said about the ego. Many people talk about it, but still we thought it would just be interesting to talk about it one more time.
Disha asked me actually, how does the ego shows itself in the world, in your life? And I said with everything we do, the ego is there. We think we are in a way, free. But the ego is our real cage. It's the one that is always looking over the shoulder. It's the one that is judging.
It's the one that is making ourselves small. It's the one that says, Ah, look at me! I did this! It's in every corner of who we are. That's why monks Just go to the monastery, and even when they are there, they have a bit, a lot of trouble to get rid of the ego. But actually, it's not that you get rid of the ego, it's that you will start to listen to the spaces in between, because every time something happens, then there's a moment there's nothing, even if it's like a millisecond or not, but there is, and this is like the true sense of who we are.
And then it comes. The response everything. Actually these small moments before something truly happens. They say you get lost in space. In a way we are. That's why it is sometimes very frightening for people when the ego dissolves. In a way, lost in space, because the ego is also the one that we, in a way, we like our cages. We like to be the victim, most people do, they don't want to acknowledge it, but they do.
Sometimes.someone comes to me and they're like, Oh, this is happening and this, and why is this happening to me? And stuff like that. I say okay we can talk about this, that you feel that way, sad, but then you will feel like this way for the rest of your life. You will never get out of it. If that's what you want, I'm fine with it, it's your life.
I'm not telling you need to be different, but do you like feeling this way? And then they say no. Okay, but then we can do something. And the moment someone says no, is the moment, is also this still moment in between, because then they realize, wait a second, I am not this, I am something else. And then the ego comes back and says, yes, but this person, this and that.
The ego is also the one that blames the world. It's always the other person or it blames you and it says it's because you you are always like this. And it will never change. The ego keeps us small.
Disha:
So how to get rid of it, in a way?
Nathalie:
I don't think we need to get... The world is not ready for not having an ego at all. We would be running around chicken without heads. We would actually.
Disha:
Headless chickens.
Nathalie:
Headless chickens. We would. And sometimes when people get a psychosis for example, or enlightenment experiences that are very close to psychosis most of the times, the ego just in a way just loses its grip. And then those people, they are like rockets. They go into the sky and they have all these epiphanies. They understand and everything dissolves. And most get afterwards this really frightful faces. Because when everything starts to dissolve and no one understands, then fear comes.
So that's why I say if the ego would just... Just let go of all of us from one moment to the next, then most people would be like, out of their heads. So it is slowly, it loses its grip. But the way to lose or to get rid of the grip of the ego is start to notice. Start to notice. Is this really me? When you know you meet this person, you always have this feeling about this person.
We all do have certain persons that like in a way, how you say that rock your boat. And you're like, oh no, okay, this person is coming. Okay. But in the end, it is like the ego telling you, you have problems with this person.
It's not true. It's just a thought. and even that things happen in the past. Every moment is a new. And when we start realizing that, we get into the middle of who we are. And when we are in the middle of who we are, the ego does not exist. So when I work with people, and they cannot get out of it, I sometimes do this practice.
I say, okay, you know you're standing here, but take a step forward. And you leave that behind you. You just take a step. How do you feel? Huh? I feel different. The reason why is that you make them aware of that they have these thoughts and when you just make step forward, then they get them into the present moment.
And in the present moment the ego never exists. Never. The ego is not here when we are here. Never. It's like a coat. You get home, it was cold, you take your coat off. And you're home. So the ego is like a coat. And when it is like this coat that is very tight, you're like, UGH! Take it off.
And when you take it off, you get into the present moment. So when we are aware where we are, like you and me are here now. Our ego is out of the door, we are here. We are. And and it tries to distract us instantly. So sometimes it feels like this part of us that doesn't want to let go. But if it was really something that was who we are, it would have been with us from the moment we would have entered this world.
From the moment we would have left. But it develops. When you are three, four, five, six, seven, it develops in different ways. We can be the victim, we can be the conqueror we can be the student, we can be the intellect, we can be the loving one, even if we can be the good person, but it is always there's always something that is opposite.
Opposite of the good or the bad, the good or the bad. So the ego is always about the good person, the bad person, the good idea, the bad idea, the good behavior, the bad behavior. This is where the ego is. And we talk about this is a good behavior, this is a bad behavior. And when we do, our ego is just laughing.
Okay, I got you. Things can make us upset in a way, but when we start labeling things, the ego gets in. And then we make a distinction. Judgment and when we start to judge, we lose the overall view. We cannot see the whole picture.
And this is what the ego always does. So it narrows our view of the world. Our view of ourselves. Because we are the ones experiencing the world around us. Even that you sit in front of me, your experience is different than it is mine. And even that we understand each other on different levels, it's a different experience which has to do with where you came from.
But I believe that if we are in the present moment, we can experience the world the same way, because the labels are gone. And when the labels are gone, the good dies.
Disha:
Perhaps, can we talk about why do we need the ego when we are young, and we start to develop a personality, an identity, Why do we have that as part of our evolution to develop that up to a certain age?
Nathalie:
We wanted to experience how it would be to to live in duality. It was a choice. We all made this choice. To live in this world, to experience duality to see how it is to be in war or not, all those things. We wanted to experience this and see. So we come in with no ego. We develop ego, we develop personality.
And I think, and you will see when parents, for example, come closer to their leaving of this world, to their death, then all those things they believed or stuff like that, it just disappears. And most of them, not all become, that's why they always say, yeah, they are like children again.
And away they are, because the ego is just disappearing, because it's time is over. Time is over, and then the quality of the heart, actually, the light that we are, starts shining again. When my father died he was on his deathbed, and it was actually very beautiful.
And all his brothers and sisters came, and there was so much love. My father felt so much love for everyone. And then this woman that did the service came, and she was crying and crying. And my brother asked her later, he said, Why were you crying so much? She said, He radiated so much love. My father had bad things happening to him, but it disappeared.
He left it in this life and he was ready to go to the other world. And then everyone left. And he said, okay, I am ready. He had to wait a few more days, but he was ready and he was not sorry about it. So when we see that it is just a part of the process we have as people, as humans, we start taking it less serious.
And we start laughing about it. I said, Oh yes, the ego got me. Oh man, you did it again. You did it again. And and when you have this you can laugh about it, you start to let it go. You start to take yourself less serious because it can only exist because, we are taking it so serious.
We are taking it as the truth. But what is the truth even, we talk about it, this is the truth. And then something new is discovered and we're like, oh no. That was not the truth at all. But at that moment we believed that it was. And the ego always says this is the way it is. Yes in my world. But in Disha's world it may be different. And everyone around me,
It's not something that we just need to see it, that it is there and that it has this function to, to understand how it is to see both sides, because sometimes we're in the good and sometimes we're in the bad because we have both things inside us. It would be stupid to say, I am only good.
The moment I say that, I'm actually pretty bad. If I, I am not good and I am not bad. I am the middle. I am the middle and sometimes I do good deeds and sometimes I do bad deeds. Comparing to who you ask, because that is also different in different parts of the world. But actually I am the middle. Experiencing both, because I wanted to experience this. And for that I needed to ego, because if I would have been, still be the light, I still am, when I am in the middle. But if I would have been that from the birth until today, then I would not have experienced both of these sides. That's why we have it in our lives.
Disha:
So what I'm hearing is to feel acceptance for who we are, where we are, knowing that we are enough, complete as is. the way we are. And from that place of acceptance, then also means there's less judgment or trust. What does that trust lead to?
Nathalie:
Trust in the end leads to that you experience the middle ground. Because in a way, then you are not much about learning lessons, but then you have learned your lesson. You have grown. You made a step forward. Most people say don't accept this part of them. It needs to change. Then it will never change. Because it is a part of who you are. We are capable of very beautiful things. And we are all capable of really bad things. Just create the situation, and we are. It depends how much of the middle you already know. And then perhaps you do less bad things. But we are all capable of everything we see in this world. Everything we are. And the moment we start to realize that and embrace all these parts then it becomes less and less.
And the light in the middle of who we are starts to grow. Then we know we have this sense of well being inside ourselves. We have these feelings of trust, of wisdom, of knowledge, of guidance. This is what comes. But before we get there, we need to know all pieces of ourselves. And be in peace with that.
Even if we think, oh, this is a really bad behavior of myself. Okay, I'm ignoring it. It's not me. It's not me. But it is you. It's also you. And actually it's not. It's just like the coat you put on when you enter this world. to experience what it was like, you grew up in India as a woman, which was not easy. You told me about it and I grew up here in a family that did their best. But if I would have done nothing in my life, that would have been fine, But for you and for me, we felt there is more. There is so much more in this life, and we had to work for it to get there, but we wanted this.
We wanted to work for this, because we knew there's so much, there's such an how do you say this there is so much aliveness actually, and we both became women and that we did choose. In most parts of the world this was less difficult here than where you grew up, but still it was.
It's difficult to express yourself because most of the times it's not accepted. But we wanted to make, in a way, the change. So in the beginning we needed a really strong ego.
Disha:
Interesting.
Nathalie:
Yeah, we needed a strong ego. So the ego, in a way can be a force for good, so called, I say, good, in the sense that it can help us to have certain experiences from which we learn our lessons,
Disha:
So it's not all bad.
Nathalie:
No. It can help us to grow as individuals to learn our lesson,
Disha:
And to what end do we need to learn those lessons, why?
Nathalie:
Not we are, it just wants to experience. It just wants to experience. And we have all been, like, bad in the past. Or we are now. Just to know, like, how do we talked about that. If it's really about, if we just are in one corner. Just this this tiny corner. We don't know the rest. The way to, to know the rest is to experience it. it. Fully. Not just by putting your toe into the water. No. Just go underneath and it feels like you're drowning.
And then you come up again, we need to feel all the parts. And from that we learn. And we understand. And we see other peoples struggle. But we know, we will, they will surface again. Maybe not this life, maybe another life, or 10, 000 lives, but in where we came from, time is irrelevant, like everything is here right now, all the possibilities, all of who we are.
We just want to feel. So you have many places you can go to as a spirit. And this is one of the actually most interesting worlds. We have emotions. We are moving to a part or to like a place Where the emotions will disappear and imagine if everything is steady This is what happens when the emotions disappear. Everything is steady Can be very boring and when it's steady, we will not experience it as boring because even that will not exist anymore.
But we still have emotions. and actually they are really amazing things, even if we are angry or when we are sad, it teaches us something.Or when we are amazed with what we see. Those are all parts of these emotions. And you have the lower vibrational emotions and the higher ones. They become more feelings. But it's only possible 'cause we have ego because we see the distinction between good or bad, even if it is true or not. But it is for us. That's why we can feel all those things.
Disha:
I'd like you to perhaps talk about the manifestation of ego in a material sense in the world. So when we have our personality, our identity. Growing up. We also associate that with things we want to create, manifest in the world, which I believe is what our ego comes into play with. And how do we, when we are manifesting those things, when we are creating those things, how does our ego work in that respect?
Nathalie:
When you're more bound to this world, Then you are more into the gadgets of this world, like the road and the car and the stuff like that. So you create on that level. I need to have this and the need to have it creates for a lot of people what they want. But there's another part that most people... They want it, but they never can create it. And it has to do with the fact that they believe they deserve it or not. When people believe they don't deserve it, they can run after it for their whole life.
And sometimes they get little pieces of it, but most of the times they don't get it. So people that are really good at this kind of manifestations, they are also having this really big ego So I am the one that deserves this You don't deserve it, but I do. And then you have people that start to create from the heart They create different things and then it's not like a desire anymore it is for the next stage in the development where they are, this creation needs to happen. Do you understand what I say?
Disha:
When creating from the heart, so this is what I understand. The creation happens not for what it brings to the creator, the end result, but for the want of creation, so the process, because that is necessary. To express what one is experiencing.
Nathalie:
In a way. It is like we all want to develop in life. Even if people say they're fine with where they are. We came here to experience and to grow. Some people create in a material world? And and that's okay. That's what they wanted to experience. And others create from the heart. And the heart just wants you to go further and further.
So it's not that we don't have any longings anymore, but it is like, it would be so beautiful if that would be in my life. And then you let it go. It would be so beautiful. And then you would think by yourself, why would it be beautiful? Because somewhere you know you leap forward. So you create something that makes you jump. But also has an effect on the environment. That's when we start creating from the heart.
Disha:
So the egoic creation would be more focused on me. Whereas a creation from heart would be more focused on the experience that it creates, not just for me, but perhaps as a result affecting the environment.
Nathalie:
And the way you are being called. You're being called to your mission. That's what it means. And that's actually the difference. The first ones are like in the material world and perhaps in another life they did this mission of the heart, it's not like when they are at the other side that they are less evolved, this is just a way of thinking. But when you create from the heart you are being called. And you hear this calling. When it is the purpose in your life to, to create from the heart, then if you get into the material world, it doesn't give you the satisfaction. And even when you get stuck here, like life is giving you opportunities to get out of it because it is not your life purpose.
And then when you start following that, then it starts to create the environment where you need to do what you're supposed to do. And most of the times, like you have this spiral I am making on the table, it goes outwards. But when I talk about this, I make the spiral inwards. Inwards.
You go deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper inside yourself until you are in the core and you found your true calling, actually. But the true calling is never something we can think of. The true calling is something you live, you just live and from there when you connect it to the true calling, the outside circle starts to move again, the spiral starts to move out again. Because you have found your true calling, you have found your mission, and
with that the ego is just a tool, but actually it's not, we cannot talk about the ego anymore because it is, it's not about good and bad. When you get to this core, to this true manifestation of your calling actually, there, the thoughts become less and less.
And then you know the ego disappeared. And that's why they say that if all of us started taking care of our inner world then the outer world takes care of itself. In a way. For community. Or peace. Or equality. It's just there.